Notes From the Heights: The Mt. Sinai Saga Continues
by Rebecca Honig Friedman
The Mount Sinai Jewish Center announcements clamor had a chance to play out formally at a “town hall” meeting on Sunday, April 22nd. Congregants were invited to ask questions of Rabbi Mordechai Schnaidman and voice their concerns openly.
The discussion revealed that young women in the Mt. Sinai community are deeply committed to their Orthodox Judaism but very unhappy about ways they feel they have been excluded from the synagogue’s ritual life. It was also obvious that while Schnaidman cares about his congregants’ concerns - evidenced by his holding the meeting in the first place - his attempts to appease his female congregants are driven by what one female shul-member deemed a desire to “pacify women,” rather than by a commitment to furthering women’s rights in Judaism.
“It’s incorrect to say ‘where there’s a halachic will there’s a halachic way,’” Schnaidman said, referring to Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance founder Blu Greenberg’s famous refrain. As “guardians of a tradition,” he insisted, the Orthodox “shouldn’t let others tell us what’s egalitarian.”
“In principle, yes, I’m open to change,” he said, and assured congregants that he would consider any convincing arguments, but he asked that he be given time to mull them over. Indeed, his consistent refrain to the suggestion of any potential change was, “tzarikh iyyun” — it needs further investigation.
When asked to clarify his position on why women may not make announcements, Schnaidman explained that since the announcements are connected to the prayer service, which is explicitly not led by women, their stepping up to address the congregation would be “discontinuous with the nature of tefilla” [prayer] and with the “fabric of Jewish life.”
Several congregants argued with this logic by offering examples of Orthodox synagogues where women do make announcements, including Kadimah in Springfield, MA and the Young Israel of East Brunswick, NJ, amongst others. The rabbi said he would investigate the matter further.
Schnaidman mentioned in passing that he regretted the conversation he had with Sharon Weiss — in which he said that men and women are different by nature and that women should not make the congregation’s announcements because men would get too excited — but he expressed similar views on the subject of hakafot on Simchat Torah.
Mt. Sinai’s policy is for women who want to dance with a sefer Torah to leave the main sanctuary and go to the beit midrash for their own separate hakafot. None of the women were satisfied with this policy, and some got very emotional about it.
One woman cried as she spoke about the importance of feeling part of the community in the celebration of Simchat Torah and the pain of having to separate from that community in order to be able to dance with the Torah.
Schnaidman said he has been struggling with this issue and realizes it’s a compromise, but explained the reasoning behind the policy: Women dancing with the Torah, he said, could become a “spectacle” that might result in the “diminution of the joy” of the occasion.
The audience wondered for whose eyes the rabbi thought this spectacle would be playing out. He clarified that he meant for the men and declined to explain any further.
But the women disagreed, saying that male congregants already watch the women dancing and that the presence of the Torah is precisely what would keep it from being a spectacle. The Torah is “a physical reminder of what we’re celebrating, the joy of learning Torah,” said one female congregant, and its presence transforms what would otherwise be merely a social experience. “Without it they’re just dancing,” said another congregant, Orly Lieberman, who is active in JOFA a Drisha Scholar.
An older woman asked about the possibility of passing the Torah to the women’s section so the women can kiss it. One younger woman said that is the policy even in the Lubavitcher community where she used to daven.
“Tzarich iyun,” said Rabbi Schnaidman.
In response to a question about his vision for women’s leadership in the synagogue and which leadership roles are appropriate, Schnaidman likened a woman’s role in the synagogue to her role in a marriage. “Women should be full partners” and should participate in the synagogue in many ways — shiurim, committees and prayers, for example — but they don’t necessarily need to do so with officially elected positions, he said. As an afterthought, he added that if he announced that he, a Yisroel, wanted to be a Kohen and perform the duchening [priestly blessing], people would laugh at him, because Judaism has defined roles for different kinds of people.
Sharon Weiss noted that historically women did not attend synagogue until relatively recently and wondered if their presence as members of the congregation should be cause to re-evaluate what is meant by kavod hatzibur [respect for the congregation] (cited in the Talmud as the reason women do not get called up to the Torah).
Rabbi Schnaidman said that women did go to the Beit Hamikdash — which is where the concept of mechitza originates — and that they “participated fully” but as “vicarious participants.”
One of the co-founders of the new MigdalOr minyan, Rachel Berger, returned the discussion to the term “the fabric of Jewish life.” When she thinks about that phrase, she said, she thinks of the people as individual threads. What did the rabbi think about the complaints and feelings he heard from those individual threads, she asked, and how do they affect his view of “the overall fabric”?
Schnaidman maintained that he considered these complaints of individual threads to be specific and isolated, not part of a larger problem in the overall fabric.
Karen Shulman, another co-founder of the MigdalOr minyan and a Mt. Sinai member, noted that Judaism is dynamic and “the fabric of Jewish life” has changed over the years. How do those changes come about, and who has the authority to make them, she asked.
Schnaidman said change happens through a slow process in which people ask questions, rabbis debate different answers, and eventually a consensus forms, “somehow or other.” In general, he said, when it comes to change, “It’s better we don’t jump on the bandwagon right away.”
Weiss hit back: “As much as we have to be cautious about making changes,” she said, “we also have to be cautious about not making changes.”
Schnaidman agreed, citing the principle of chasid shoteh [a pious fool], giving the example of a man who sees a woman drowning and debates whether he should violate laws forbidding touching a woman in order to save her (while he is debating, she dies).
Of the new MigdalOr minyan, Schnaidman said, “Thank God they didn’t ask me a shayla about it.” He said he is uncomfortable with it, but also offered, “They’re testing the waters, let’s see what happens.”
Several men expressed their support for women’s inclusion in leadership roles and ritual life. A rabbinical student at Yeshivat Chovevei Torah said the issue for him is not just empowerment of women, but also of being in a community where things “are done or not done.” He said he feels uncomfortable with being in a community where women are being denied participation.
Another male congregant expressed concern that in restricting women’s participation in leadership roles the congregation is denying itself the opportunity to have their “absolute best and brightest” contribute to the community.
Schnaidman said he hoped women wouldn’t deny the congregation their talents just because they are not allowed to hold certain official titles.
When Jewess asked Schnaidman how he thought the meeting went, he said he was impressed by the passionate statements made by his young congregants, and by what he perceived as their patience: “There are a lot of kids who care about yiddishkeit,” he said, but noted with pleasure that they’re willing to listen to a word of caution about not changing too quickly. Overall, said Schnaidman, “I thought they went easy on me.”
Posted on May 8th, 2007 Filed under: Uncategorized |
So is it your opinon that Karen Shulman is being innovative and within the realms of traditional judaism
and Rav Elyashiv is baseless, has no ground to stand on and is just involved a big conspiracy for profit?
No, that is not my opinion.
Karen Shulman is being innovative in her community but she and her co-founders of MigdalOr are following a well-established model, that of Jerusalem’s Shira Hadasha, which was founded by people who take halacha very seriously. Within the realms of “traditional Judaism?” Perhaps not — depends on what you consider traditional, — but within the realms of halacha, at least according to certain opinions. Many of the male attendees of MigdalOr are rabbinical students at Yeshivat Chovevei Torah — men who are, as I understand it, serious about halacha but also serious about reading halacha in a way that is progressive.
Rav Elyashiv calling for women in his community to dress modestly is perfectly appropriate, but establishing a formal court with a formal hashgacha where a few rabbis decide definitively what is and what is not “modest” dress is going too far.
I never said I thought it was “a big conspiracy for profit” — that was another commenter — though I wouldn’t rule economic considerations out of the picture.
Ok, Isee your point. So in that case
How is Rav Elyashiv’s establishment of a hasgacha for revelaing clothing any less legitimate than the establishment of shira hadasha?
Rav Elyashiv is imposing his will on others. No one is forced to go to Shira Hadasha if they don’t want to. You could say that no one is forced to abide by Rav Elyashiv’s rulings either, but leaving a community that you’re thoroughly entrenched in is not nearly as easy as not going to a particular shul.
“Rav Elyashiv is imposing his will on others.”
No one said you had to follow it.
You keep on redefining your problem with this issue. You should stick to one argument.
I wonder how you would react if one of the head priests of the Amish towns in Lancaster or Allentown Pensylvania decided to ban lycra spandex if you would be respectful or as intolerant.
Oh, I forgot, they alreayd have a very restricted dress code to being with. So modest and restrictive they would make all Jewesses look like floozies.
Again, how is the innovation of the “established” (ie, been around a few years) Shirah chadasha any more legitimate than the establishment (which will be just as “already established” in a few years) than the hashgacha for certain clothes?
“No one said you had to follow it.”
True, and I have no intention of doing so, nor do, I assume, most of the readers of this blog. I do not feel personally threatened by Rav Elyashiv’s modesty court. But I am disturbed by the state of affairs in which a small group of rabbis are seeking to control seemingly every aspect of the lives of the communities they lead, especially when that control is being exerted disproportionately on women. The idea of hashgacha for clothing suggests that women cannot be trusted to make their own decisions about what is appropriate and modest. That is what I find offensive.
As for the legitimacy of a hashgacha for clothes versus the legitimacy of a minyan like Shira Hadasha, you are the one who introduced the concept of “legitimacy.” As I am not a halachic authority, I cannot comment on the halachic legitimacy of either.
But the difference between the two “innovations” is that Rav Elyashiv’s is restrictive whereas Shira Hadasha is permissive. The former is oppressive while the latter is liberating. You may disagree with which one if more halachically appropriate but you can see why I, as a woman in the 21st century, would be more supportive of the latter and more condemning of the former.
That is my perspective. You may disagree with it, but there it is.
Why is it that the feminists are never fighting for a minyan during the WEEK?
When that happens, and Karen Shulman starts demanding a daily minyan so that she can assume ALL roles of us men, THEN there’s what to talk about.
I didn’t know that the Rabbis were being oppressive and restircvitve and belittling. I thought they held jewish women in highest regard and they felt it necessary to show how sacred and holy the women are, something the women would appreciate. I didn’t realize that they were being just like the rest of the world the defiles and degrades women,
Whoa whoa whoa? Where do all the commenters get off speaking negatively about Karen Shulman after reading the proceeding post? In Rebecca’s post it simply states that she asked the Rabbi a straight forward, non-political question in an appropriate forum to do so. Lay off a good person who you obviously don’t know (otherwise you wouldn’t make such judgments), ESPECIALLY when you don’t seem to know any of the facts. If you want to criticize, next time actually go to the forum and say these disgusting things in person and don’t just hide behind a blog. If you can;t do that, don’t say them at all. Grow up people. Baseless hatred doesn’t suit anyone.
Rabbi Schnaidman deserves a medal for being too nice, whatever the ultimate outcome.
As for the simchat torah part, don’t fool yourselves. The fact that theres a sefer torah there does not diminish mens’ pleasure in watching the women dance.
I wonder why many of the women who insist on dancing with the Torah in front of men on Simchas Torah all seem to have mechitzahs for the dancing at their own wedding. How come many women feel it is ok to dance in front of men on Simchas torah, but at a wedding it becomes wrong.
I feel like the title of this post is homage to my website, and - whether intentional or not - I love that!
Also, thanks for the summary of the event. I unfortunately wasn’t able to make it, but I was hoping to get a blow-by-blow.
whatever:
Not sure where you are getting that generalization from, but in the case of the women at Mt. Sinai, they are talking about dancing with a Torah behind a mechitzah. The problem is, as I understand it, the mechitzah at Mt. Sinai allows easy viewing between the men’s and women’s sections.
Mordy:
Intended or not — glad you love the title, and you’re welcome. Congrats on the Rolling Stone gig!
this is where you just blindly believe conjecture without investigating and then let your assumptions paint your bias.
There is absolutely no room whatsoever in the mt sinai sanctuary for dancing behind the mechitza, let alone people to stand two by two. the spaces is so narrow between the pews it is even tough to stand forward for shemona esreh (in the mens section as well).
They probably meant that the men dance on the main floor and the women go outside to the ballroom . It is impossible that women dance in the womens secton though.
rediculous:
Wow, your tone is much angrier than befits your point. I admit my ignorance on the exact layout of Mt. Sinai’s main sanctuary, but you do the same thing you accuse me of doing when you say “They probably meant…”
Would someone from Mt. Sinai please weigh in? Where do the women dance in the main sanctuary on Simchat Torah?
I was not there on Simchat Torah, but it was made clear at the meeting that there was a mechitza for dancing in the main sanctuary for women’s dancing. An additional area was made available in the beit midrash downstairs for women who wanted to dance with a sefer Torah.
Odds and Ends…
A few bits of bookkeeping today: My father has been posting some articles on UTJ Viewpoints. Despite the erratic typesetting, you may find it worthwhile.Jewess has a very good report of the Mt. Sinai Town Hall meeting from a few……
I see that this new minyan is progressive in allowing women to preform but fail to see how they are committed to either social or halachic issues. Have they undertaken any social progrects ? done any tikkun ? or is it just merely a forum to allow women to sing ? also, what commitment to halacha is there ? they seem to have no halachic guidance as pointed to the fact that when pointed out that kiddush on fri night is problematic - they responded oops we’ll have to look into that. What about other halachic issues that you ignore besides kiddush on fri night as kol eisha and etc.. what hlachic principles are you dedicated other than feminism ?
Dear Confused,
MigdalOr is very new progressive minyan that is committed to both social justice and halacha. Before I respond further though, I do want to tell you that I take issue with the tone of your comment. I am answering you in good faith, but I insist that MigdalOr receive the same level of respect within this conversation.
To address the tikkun aspect, sit tight, Confused, it’s coming! MigdalOr has met a total of three times to date, but those meetings have taken several months of advance planning, as well as weekly meetings to find a space, daveners, dvar torah givers etc. We are a small group of young people who are busy with various combinations of school, work, and families. So, this summer, we do hope to get new projects started. But please, we need and welcome people who would like to be active in this area. Since MigdalOr aims to be a community kehilla, we would like as much input as possible. Are there any social issues that drive you? We are especially interested in working within Washington Heights, since this is our neighborhood and home.
In terms of the halachic issues undergirding our decisions, I assure you, we are quite committed to halacha. In terms of the issue you pointed out: Friday night kiddush, allow me to elucidate. As is common practice with small startup minyanim, we hoped to have a Friday night meal to follow davening, to let people get to know each other a little more. We have different sources that gave us varying opinions on just how extensive that meal had to be. They ranged from having a full seudah to just having a small amount of bread for people to wash on. As we are just starting out, we decided on that smaller option. Frankly though, we concluded that we did not feel comfortable providing just that, and decided to hold off on kiddush until we have the
means to do a full meal. Preferably potluck.
Come check us out! We are meeting again this Friday night.
Best,
Rachel Berger, on behalf of MigdalOr
SHOLOM; THERE IS A NEED FOR AN ORTHODOX
SOCIAL SERVICE IN WHICH INDIVIDUALS WHO
HAVE PROBLEMS ARE TO GO FOR HELP AND
NOT MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS. A SOCIAL
WORKER IS NOT A RAV NECESSARILY BUT SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS PROBLEMS.
ENOUGH OF SHTEIBELS, AND SHULS.. WE ALL
HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER AND IF SOMETHING IS
WRONG IT IS WRONG AND NO MONEY CAN
REPAY FOR THE WRONG…
BEST REGARDS. FAIGA BAS YESHOSHUA
SHOLOM; HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT A
RELIGIOUS LADY CANNOT GET A GET/ IT
SHOWS THE RABBONIM HAVE NO POWER TO
HANDLE MATTERS. PERHAPS A SOCIAL WORKER
CAN STRAIGHTEN OUT THE PROBLEM. THAT IS
THE REASON WHY LADIES ARE TAKING SIFREI
TORAHS TO DANCE. IF IT IS AGAINST HALACHA,
IT IS, BUT IF A LADY CANNOT GET A GET OR
CANNOT FIND A SHIDDUCH BECAUSE SHE DOES
NOT HAVE THE SUFFICIENT BANK BOOK
ABVAILABLE, IT IS A BIG PROBLEM, AND THE
RABBONIM SHOULD NOT SAY THEY MISSED THE
CHANCE. THEY ARE COVERING UP THE PROBLEM.
WHEN I WAS WORKING I HAD TO PERFORM AND
IF I DID NOT PERFORM AT THE JOB, THE DOORS
WERE OPENED.
I HOPE THESE LINES WILL EXPLAIN WHY
LADIES ARE ACTING IN SUCH A FASHION.
I ONLY WISH I COULD STRIGHTEN OUT
THE PROBLEMS.
BEST REGARDS FAIGA BAS YESHOSHUA…..
CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ALL OF US WHO
ARE YOU PERMITTED TO USE THE ERUV IN
WASHINGTON HEIGHTS. PLEASE REPLY.
I AM CONFUSED…
BEST REGARDS.
FAIGA ………………………………………..
I have to say, that I could not agree with you in 100% regarding Notes From the Heights: The Mt. Sinai Saga Continues, but it’s just my opinion, which could be wrong