“Nature of Men” Keeps Women From Making Synagogue’s Announcements
by Rebecca Honig Friedman
Women won’t be allowed to make announcements at an Upper Manhattan Modern Orthodox synagogue because the rabbi says their doing so could titillate male congregants.
Mount Sinai Jewish Center is currently hosting a competition to determine the next announcer of community goings on after prayers, but only men are allowed to compete. When a congregant, Sharon Weiss, protested, the synagogue’s Rabbi Mordechai Schnaidman explained that the policy would not change, because of the “sexual overtones” involved, which he said would arouse men and lead to a lack of “decorum” in the sanctuary.
Weiss (who is the sister of Jewess Publisher Steven I. Weiss) first read of the discriminatory policy in a post about the contest’s “open auditions to find the brightest post-tefillah announcements talent” on the community’s Web message board, Maalot.
The post explained that:
applicants (shul members only) will be given one chance, a single trip to the podium, to prove that they have what it takes to clearly and concisely convey the week’s announcements to the kehilla. After every applicant has had a turn, shul members will be directed to the shul website where they will vote for their favorite and decide who will be the new voice of Mt. Sinai.
When a fellow poster noted that “talented females are unable to attain the position,” Weiss contacted synagogue leaders for an explanation.
Weiss, a teacher of Jewish History at Yeshiva University High School for Girls, told Jewess her email to the competition coordinator (one of the gabbaim of the shul), Elie Klein, announcing her intent to audition was ignored [UPDATE: Weiss tells Jewess that Klein was unable to reply as his newborn baby was occupying his attention] until she posted her gripe on Ma’alot:
…the question is do our male counterparts want to acknowledge our abilities to participate and contribute to the Jewish community? Unfortunately, many are not interested and are willing to hide behind the false guise of misinterpreted or non-existent halakhha in order to hold the ground of the man’s territory, which also happens to be the same sanctuary that us women are supposed to pray and maybe even be included in. Thus far my phone has rung in order to plan and help execute fundraisers and various shul functions. Mt. Sinai is happy to take my time and money as long as the following actions are done behind the scenes.
After that post she received a phone call from Klein who, she told Jewess in an interview, suggested she take the matter up with Schnaidman, the congregation’s longtime spiritual leader, which she did this past Friday night, and, said Weiss, “It was awful.”
Weiss has posted her account of their conversation on Ma’alot:
I spoke to the rabbi. Apparently, the rabbi believes that a woman making announcements may create a sexual sort of atmosphere that would be inappropriate for a holy place. I had a 45-minute conversation with the rabbi successfully identifying the numerous gaps in his logic. Unfortunately, he simply did not care how logical or rational my thoughts were. He explained over and over again that this tension cannot be averted; even though at one point he admitted that women were capable of leading in such settings as his early days in Bnei Akiva. He was not interested in attempting to create such an environment in Washington Heights. Apparently he is in favor of sustaining this tension rather than portraying women as people who have character, intelligence, and even public speaking skills. (If you weren’t already sitting you may want to take a seat for this next sentence.) When I asked the rabbi this question about presenting a competent representation of the women of the world, he responded that we need to maintain the natural physical tension
for shidduch purposes.
Schnaidman confirmed Weiss’s account in a phone conversation and explained that his rationale behind barring women from giving the announcements is that if a woman gets up in front of the congregation, the men will start having impure thoughts, and that will degrade the sanctity that one should try to uphold in the sanctuary.
Interestingly, Schnaidman allows women to give divrei Torah at the shalosh seudos meal — a recent development that Weiss told Shnaidman should set a precedent for women being allowed to make innocuous announcements about who’s sponsoring the weekly kiddush and the like.
But Schnaidman disagreed, precisely because of the light subject matter. When women are delivering words of Torah, he told Jewess, the focus is — or should be — on the content of their speech, but he said, “An announcement is a different kind of thing — a person gets up and there’s a tendency to try and give it flavor and make it cute.” In this situation, Schnaidman explained, “the overtones of sexuality would come into play in that the person is being judged not just by the content, but by how they’re delivering it, more so than the in the context of words of Torah being exchanged.”
As to why there’s no concern over women having sexual thoughts about men, Schnaidman explained that “There’s a difference between men and women; I don’t think women would start judging a man with the same sexual overtones,” noting the prevalence of beautiful women in advertising as evidence of the power the female sex has over men. “I think the decorum will be maintained more if men are giving the announcements,” he asserted.
Schnaidman acknowledged that some would call him “old-fashioned” or even “a barbarian” for these views but, he insisted, “the nature of men and women is still with us, even in our sophisticated society, and I’m ready to sacrifice some equality of roles in order to maintain the kedusha [holiness].”
Weiss told Jewess that she argued in their conversation that Schnaidman’s concern over sexual tension degrading the purity of the sanctuary is a bogus rationale since the mechitza in the shul, which is attended by lots of singles, is set up in such a way that allows easy viewing, and men and women are constantly checking each other out during services.
“Maybe we should look into that,” Schnaidman responded when Jewess put the point to him.
When Jewess repeated Weiss’s question about whether the community should simply encourage men to rise above their baser instincts and to consider women with respect, Schnaidman paused for a moment, and replied, “Well, that’s something to think about.”
Schnaidman admitted that his thinking on this issue is influenced by the proximity of the more-conservative Breuer’s community, whose main synagogue is a block away from Mt. Sinai. “If I were in a different community,” Schnaidman said, “not affected by what others would say, maybe I would be affected by the question differently.”
Schnaidman added that the board coordinating the competition made the initial decision not to allow women to audition, and that while he is glad they did, he thinks the decision was made because of tradition, without any serious thinking about why; serious thinking he is now being forced to do, thanks to Weiss.
Posted on March 7th, 2007 Filed under: Uncategorized |
Sharon, this is taking it waaay too far.
get over yourself. no shul has women make the annoucnements.
when Suzaane wrote about this on facebook it seemed to be toungue in cheek as did the maalot board thread. of all the stupid things to take to the general public and make a big deal about…
“misinterpreted or non-existent halakhha”
There is such a thing though called tradition. For whatever reason we have consistency in our relinion because we do things as they had always been done before us. Rabbi Schnaidman cleary chose to adhere to the way things have been done previously. To challenge him on such a minor matter as who makes the announcements is a testament to the immaturity of some congregants.
Go Ms. Weiss!! Even if your protest does not lead to any immediate results, it has at least forced the Rabbi to examine the logic (or lack thereof) behind his decision. I do think it is time men stopped viewing women in a single role and started recognizing that they are capable of more. I do not think that if men respect women for their character and mind it will affect the “shidduch world”. I do believe that if anything, it will improve the quality of dating and add depth to male-female relationships.
I don’t see how saying that the mechitzah allows people to check each other out, backs up the position for women making announcements, that is clearly faulty logic. Also, if you can’t admit that there is some difference between the sexual excitement stirred in men and women, then you really are in denial, and your ‘open-mindedness’ has closed you off from the normal thinking world.
It may seem like a minor thing to make a fuss over, but when you consider the root of the shul’s policy the issue isn’t trivial at all… if Orthodoxy doesn’t start making an honest effort to give women more of a role in the community within the realms of halachah, the results will be devastating.
While I will refrain from commenting on this specific case, as I am not a resident of WH, I would like to commend Sharon for taking a stance on something that she felt affronted by, (something too few people do, most preferring to live with complacency) and correct the inaccurate statement made by “WH person” that “no shul has women make the announcements”. B’nai David Judea Congregation in the Pico-Robertson neighborhood of Los Angeles, CA does have women make announcements on Shabbat-even while standing up on the dais to do so on a consistent basis! If you care to assert such blanket statements about the greater American Jewish community, I would suggest you do some research outside of your homey NYC bubble. Aside from the latest tendencies of chareidi modern Orthodox streams, which are most prevalent in communities (like NYC) large enough to sustain such diverse and extreme divisions within the community, you may find many others who hold down the fort of modern and open Orthodoxy to find offense in your assertion. Just because we straddle the line between being frum and open-minded, doesn’t make us deserving of scorn. I am not by any means suggesting that halakhah should be discarded for newer and more modern ways strictly on that basis, however, when we do bring up issues of Orthodoxy that offend our open minded tendencies, it is a conversation that deserves time, attention, and an honest struggle to find a fair and realistic truth that incorporates tradition and the world within which we live. Keep in mind that it is thanks to people who question honestly and who seek the true and healthy mix between law and desire that we have most of the “current” halakhot that exist today…kashering an oven…shabbat timers…etc. “WH person”- I think you should get over yourself and get with the program of what it really means to be modern and Orthodox. Go Sharon!
Sharon - the Rabbi is an older man who has been through a lot - cut him some slack. Decorum in shul will be compromised when all those guys look at that newly made up girl stumbling over her lines. Think about what that will do for womankind and femininity. Even OZ doesn’t have woman making announcements.
I actually very much agree with Ms.Weiss’s views. I feel that there is no reason why women are not able to make the shul’s post davening announcements. We are beyond that point in Jewish history where the mere presence of a women for say, less than 5 minutes, would seriously affect the thought processess of the men present. Women are strong, intelligent and extremely competent people and while there are some halachic areas in which men do trump women this should not be one of them.
Nava, in defense of WH Person, I don’t see where he/she lobbed any “scorn” as you imply.
Regardless of what the actual issue is, Sharon’s description of her own confrontational antagonistic approach to the old man charged with maintaining the spiritual and religious health of his congregation is immature and rude. She seems to think this is funny, and not the least bit offensive to the Rabbi or the synagogue.
I think that you are right. Nowhere in the shulcan aruch does it preclude women from doing various things in shul because of tznius. It is Kavod Tzibbur. While you can take it as a hard and fast rule it may have something to do with society at the time. However, tznius is not an acceptable answer for why women cannot make anouncements.
I believe that keeping halacha 100% you can still have a woman make announcements. Those who do support the change must stand and challenge accusations of lack of halachic legitimacy.
With full and do respect for a talmid chacham, I must respectfully disagree.
I’ve been asked to try out for announcements. I will not try out until Sharon Weiss can as well.
Yehuda Kranzler
Thank you Batya, Nava, and “R”
To the others,
If you knew me at all, you would know that I dedicate a great deal of time, effort and energy to my community, students and campers. I am a Jewish educator…people in Jewish education are not in it for the money. We truly care about the present and future of the Jewish community and hope to ensure Jewish continuity. I may be young, but I spend a great deal of time learning about different Jewish communities in order to better ascertain things that may help communities flourish and possible obstacles communities need to overcome in order to create an ideal Jewish environment. With that in mind…
WH- I’m glad that you are confident enough in your views to post your name. Many modern orthodox shuls have women make announcements… in Boca Raton, Florida (R’ Brander’s shul, the model community for the Center for the Jewish Future), Teaneck, NJ, East Brunswick, NJ, and Riverdale, NY… I could go ahead and list almost every major city where there is a Jewish community, but that would be a waste of time. Your other arguments are not worth responding to…but thanks for your concern.
Dominican Republic- again…feel free to let us know who you are. I am well aware of tradition…I am completing a Masters in Jewish History and have been teaching Jewish History for four years. My goal is not to offend the rabbi. I don’t think that he intended to offend me. When I initially spoke to the rabbi he said that in principle there is no reason for such a policy…what changed? Who did he speak to? Once again, the other comments are not worth responding to.
Not A Femi- I’m just asking for some consistency…I see the mechitza as a true impediment to a conducive prayer environment. I actually sit in the way front of the women’s section to try to avoid the awkward setup of the shul. This was a point that I raised in a very long conversation… you should not blow it out of proportion. I am not looking to be makhel; I’m looking for a place where I feel comfortable davening. As the setup of the shul stands now, I’m not such a fan.
Lastly- why can women speak at events, seudat shlishit and have parts in the purim shpiel? If there are truly sexual undertones any time a woman opens her mouth, why is it allowed in these other shul venues? Why do we have female leaders teaching boys and men in modern orthodox institutions? Why should Dean Karen Bacon speak at Yeshiva University’s graduation? At what point can one admit that the notion of women speaking in public is actually the norm rather than a feminist and liberal cry for attention?
A huge thank you to all of those men and women who have sent me emails and called to concur or support our sentiments. This is not about me…it’s about correcting policies that were never officially created.
Kehilat Yedidya has a woman making the announcements on Shabbat morning.
Sharon -
You forgot to thank Yehuda Kranzler, who said, above: “I’ve been asked to try out for announcements. I will not try out until Sharon Weiss can as well.”
Yehuda - I think I have an online crush on you.
I did not see that post until this morning… I cannot even tell you how moved I was to see Yehuda’s post. Yehuda- you are a respected member of the community, and we appreciate your willingness to take a stance. Thank you so much.
(and rebecca- he’s already been snatched up. i got your back dena:)
If you fail to see the difference between a speech at madison square garden and prayer services inside a synagogue on sabbath morning (both requiring different mindsets and decorum) then you haven’t got a clue.
We have serious issues to contend with and real problems to solve. This isn’t one of them.
Sharon Weiss: You are my hero. What you did takes more guts than I could ever wish to have. If nothing else comes from this, you have shown other orthodox females that there are intelligent and driven women out there who are willing to stand up for what they believe in. I so much admire what you have done and am proud to know you.
“(and rebecca- he’s already been snatched up. i got your back dena:)”
Don’t worry, Sharon (or Dena), so have I
[…] quotes depicting troubling attitudes and treatment towards women in Orthodoxy. She should talk to Sharon Weiss. - Orthomom links to a spoofof her tiff with Pam Greenberg. - RenReb discourages parents of newborn […]
I certainly hope that Rabbi Schnaidman, and other right wing components of the shul don’t look into the mechitzah situation too seriously. After all, I met my wife in Mt. Sinai specifically because of the low mechitzah. As for WH and Dominican, what can I say other than bravo? Normally I would never post on any blog other than sports related blogs. I, like Ms. Weiss, am I a Jewish educator, but I like to leave work at work. But how can I not comment, when your posts smack of the violence, lack of sensitivity, and Jewish talibanism that’s plaguing Jewish spirituality.
Dominican, you claim that Rabbi S is simply sticking to tradition and the way things have been done. I’m glad you called your Israel rabbi so he could tell you what to post. Ahem, as for the way things have been done, I think you’ll be hard pressed to find shuls in Jewish History that were attended overwhelmingly by young singles. TRADITIONALLY speaking, women lived at home until they were married (actually they remained in their parents house for two years after they were married), and wouldn’t be caught dead talking to men in shul - which they probably didn’t attend in the first place.
So when you write “For whatever reason we have consistency in our relinion because we do things as they had always been done before us,” it seems altogether clear that you don’t actually know why it is we have “this thing called tradition” and “consistency.” Try in the future not to use big words like tradition, which you probably don’t understand.
That Rabbi S is dramatically old fashioned is understandable; that people like yourself and WH speak about Judaism the way you do is downright depressing. It’s probably why I stick to sports blogs. I guess the good news is that persons like Ms. Weiss and myself are educators and you probably work in the financial district far away from moldable Jewish souls.
[…] “Nature of Men”… […]
“violence, lack of sensitivity, and Jewish talibanism that’s plaguing Jewish spirituality”
Its funny that you call Rabbi Schnaidman right wing just because you disagree with his own adherence to his judgement call.
And no sir, I do not call a rabbi in israel i have spoken to probably twice in nearly a decade just to tell me how to think. I do however have respect for my shul rabbi and how he chooses to run his congregation.
“If that is violence plaguinig jewish sprituality”, well then I must be a bigger threat to so-called spirituality than say, talking to chicks through the mechitza during prayer services.
Oh and by the way, I too work with “moldable jewish souls” and wouldnt know where to find the financial disctrict on a map.
But thanks for all your personal insults and attacks. It is refreshing to know there are “jewish educators” out there who havent yet matured past schoolyard insults. I’m sure it helps you reach your students on their level.
Feminists, do you say ’shelo asani isha’ in the morning? Do you wear tefillin? There are differences between men and women (halachik and physical) whether you like it or not.
So only men can make announcements? Big F’n deal. Go to the only womens shuir every week, and every month, and speak at shalosh seudos, and go to the various women-only things in the shul. Oh yea, I didnt see a post from you feminists thanking the shul when they started having women speak in shul, or have the women only events.
By bitching about this you sound like black people who make a big deal about every possible racial issue. Its really annoying. Just get over it.
To WH Person who addressed me directly. You interpreting something I wrote as tongue and cheek doesn’t mean I wasn’t deeply upset and embarassed by what is taking place in our shul. What I couldn’t write in my original post and what I was blase about was that I knew at the time, but did not acknowledge, that Sharon had already set up a meeting to speak to the Rabbi and discuss these concerns. Everyone keeps telling me that if I really wanted to speak in front of the congregation I should instead give a shuir or speak at Seudah Shlishit. Admittingly, I’m a Baal Teshuva and know that I’m not as Jewishly educated as other women in shul. There are better women at Mt. Sinai to fill those roles. So I do what I can for my shul. I’ve been part of the Purim Shpiel on stage in front of everyone. I’ve opened for a stand up comedian on stage in front of everyone. I’m energetic and boisterous, but at the same time have never worn anything to shul or “done myself up” in a way that would put the boys in a frenzy. I love giving back to my shul in the ways I know how. I know I could be one of the “brightest post-tefillah announcements talent”. The fact that I don’t even get a chance I find completely disheartening. I am beyond happy that Sharon has taken up the cause. After all this flack that the shul has gotten it blows my mind that this “contest” still exists. Yehuda, your solidarity I found truly touching. It angers me when people hide behind false truths. If there aren’t people like Sharon to question such things then we would be in for some dark dark times.
SizDiz- I just want you to be aware how offensive your comments were, not just for women or African Americans- but for any person who has ever felt discriminated against, or felt the need to stand up!
let me take a tangent
Why do we need to daven with a mechitza?
One can make strong halachik arguments that its not needed (see conservative movement for those arguments). However it has become a red-line because of the battles fought in the middle part of the 20th century, so even “progressive orthodox” minyanim need the mechitza as otherwise they wont feel “orthodox” in any shape or form.
Once one accepts red-lines, why can’t a red-line be that speaking in the context of tefillah from in front of the aron-kodesh is a red-line? Why are some red-lines questionable, while others aren’t?
Just feel grateful for what you already have. You’re not being oppressed, you get special treatment in certain aspects. Be thankful for it instead of complaining and wanting more.
Nebbach to the woman SizDiz ends up with. Maybe it would have been smarter to stay a Reform Jew. I would have never heard smack like that from someone in my shul. You should be embarassed and all guys that read your comments should be too.
Susanne wrote: “The fact that I don’t even get a chance I find completely disheartening”
Why would you even want a chance? You contribute to the shul in the ways that you can, and Im sure the shul appreciates it. So you cant help out with the announcements? Alright, no big deal, just keep helping with the things that you do.
“If there aren’t people like Sharon to question such things then we would be in for some dark dark times”
Dark times? come on. You said yourself the shul has women speaing at shalosh seudos, have their own weekly and monthly shiur, own concerts, and more. All these are great. That is certainly not part of ‘dark times’ in any sense.
Susanne,
I don’t think SizDiz is a guy. I think she is a frummie girl.
Hey i’m a guy, can i come to the next women’s shiur?
I feel discriminated against, i wasnt allowed to come to the nishmat hazafon show. why wont they let me try out anyways?
Male Power! i wanna be heard!
haha
Sharon Weiss is a true leader in our community. Sharon could have asked with halchic permission asked to read the megillah for the congeragration last sat night. She could have come to shul wearing teffillin (like rashi’s daughter’s). She could put on tzizit every single day.
BUT SHE DOESN’T!
She is not looking to overhaul the minhag in the shul. Rather, she is looking to fit in and be a part of the orthodox community.
Making announcements after tefillah is outside the realm of halacha. Why are we now adding even more restricitons for women when there are plently of them already.
Congratulations to Sharon for not acting like the rest of us and remaing silent. To some of you this may seem like a small matter but the time has come to stand up to Rabbeim like Rabbi S. who are ostracizing women more and more from the community.
None of you misinformed people who have left comments here even have a clue who rabbi schnaidman is!
He is very far from what tyou are making him out to be and to accuse him of ostracizing women? CJW should feel ashamed for ostracizing the common sense from participating in their own brain activity.
Its actually a shame that Sharon Weiss brought this up instead of thanking the shul for all it does for women.
If the qualifications of a true leader include making mountains out of molehills, and changing the focus on women in the shul from very important to ostracized and neglected, then yes, Sharon Weiss is a true leader.
You know SizDiz, I really wanted to nominate you for President of our shul but since you are doing your ranting anonymously you’re going to have to miss out.
I’d like to address your questioning of Ms. Weiss as a leader. I served under her when she was President of the Stern College for Women Student Council and she was indeed a true leader that influenced some great changes on campus. What makes a great leader is not hiding in a closet when you have something to say, but standing up and enacting change if change needs to be made.
As has been stated on here earlier by plenty of learned men (ie Yehuda) there is nothing halachically wrong with her request. If you want something you ask for it. And if a No is accompanied by a false truth, it should be questioned.
I just want to say that I think that I have made our point. I have gotten many emails in support of what I have suggested thus far. All of us who are in agreement appreciate your emails and we hope to continue to gain support and a voice in the shul. (Again, there are two issues here: the policy of women speaking and more importantly the rationale.)
The one thing that saddens me is that people are quick to defend the rabbi (which is fine…I can appreciate their concerns), yet they failed to defend an entire race of people. SizDiz- Know that you are an embarrassment to the Jewish community and society at large when you choose to make racist statements. You can be against peoples’ ideas and such, but do not identify yourself as a Jew and perpetuate your racist ideology which is not within the realm of halakha, Jewish Philosophy, or morality. You can choose to insult me without knowing me or conversing with me; but don’t insult and stereotype an entire race… (WH and Dominican: Why didn’t you pick up on this glaring issue?)
What about the guys who use the announcement time to daven or catch up on davenning. For them, having a woman on the mens side of the mechitza could cause problems. And please don’t say well it’s there problem for being late, some people daven more slowly than others.
And Susanne, Rabbi Schneidman is correct in talking about sexual tension. If you’re unsure as to why, please tell me why you think the women in beer commercials are always extremely attractive, and never women who appear all put together or bright.
I want to apologize on how my original comment came across. I am not a racist and did not mean to put down blacks and their current sense of oppression. I apologize.
I still hold by original point that you should all just calm down on the issue. There are many ways to participate in the shul, and please continue to do so. There is no need to cause a fuss over this.
Would it surprise anyone that there are many many many more events and programs in washington heights and its environs exclusively “for women” than any other group of people?
If that doesnt make you as much of the community than auditioning for announcer then thats your sorry deal.
Personally, i find the constant programming for women to the exclusion of all others to be dsicriminatory, and chauvanistic. To ostracize men from such spiritual, educational, and vital programming just because we are men, with no real sound reason to justify our banishment is ludicrous.
Maybe some of you are getting carried away a bit by attacking each other? Let’s observe mitzvot d’oraita a bit if possible.
Wow.
This is all so embarassing for all of us.
It doesnt matter which side you are on or how you feel. This is so so embarassing.
the sooner women realize that what goes on in congregations is totally irrational and totally outside the realm of jewish law, the better off we’ll be. you can’t reason with these sort of people and surely you cannot bring logic into the equation. enough.
The torah she b’al peh and Jewish tradition are replete with examples of women teaching, speaking publicly in front of and even singing in public.
Here are a few examples that stand out to remind you:
Miryam hanaviah and the other women’s kriyah praising HaShem at the yam suf.
Devorah hanaviah’s kriyah in praise of G-d before
Barak about the defeat of Cicera (and at the hand of
Yael, a Midyanite woman).
The Gemarah talks frequently about the wife of an
amorah in Bavel who was very learned in Torah. She
would give shiurim to men from behind a mechitzah and her husband looked to her for guidance on matters of halachah.
Rashi’s granddaughters who wore tefillin on a regular
basis. There are other examples.
A simple halachically acceptable way to resolve the problem is to allow women to give announcements from behind a mechitza.
LET’S COMPROMISE INSTEAD OF FIGHT!!!
Oh, and good show Sharon. I’m tired of the idea that everyone should keep quiet, accept status quo, and not talk publicly about issues that concern them. We should expect healthy honest debate regardless of what our opinions are.
Our tradition is dynamic, not static. It follows majority opinions and behavior. The shuls named above with women speaking publicly are a minority, but they exist. This is true democracy. To overcome the closed mindedness and backward rhetoric, it will take more time, more effort, and more Sharon Weisses.
I do not understand why this discussion has not moved to a fuller castigation of Schnaidman, who, in addition to being grossly out of touch with “his” community, now demonstrates his inability to speak like a decent person. Schnaidman should at least have to apologize or explain himeself, especially in regards to his comments about keeping sexual tension in synagogues.
As my friend Chakira has just proven, this whole thing has blown into a grossly unfair attack on Rabbi Schnaidman. It still strange that they had this silly contest in the first place. I don’t care if women try out for the role of shul announcement maker and I certainly don’t feel it is a matter that requires such a big todo.
I know I myself probably wouldn’t be considered as a viable announcer anywhere cuz I sound like a cartoon.
Chakira, not only do you not have respect for a Rabbi, you want others to follow and castigate? Wow. You might have to officially change your nickname to Korach.
EphShap,
I think people are also frustrated in general at the very conservative and risk-averse approach to these kinds of issues at MSJCWH. Personally, I am looking forward to the new Washington Heights Halakhic Egal Minyan.
Chakira, is the “Washington Heights Halakhic Egal Minyan” you mention the same as the one on maalot referred to as the “New Progressive Minyan in the Heights” or is that something else?
Sharon Weiss makes outstanding points in her views. I think its soo nice that she feels so passionate and cares so much about the wellbeing of her community.
Props! Keep it up!
I think they must be the same Minyan.
Just to clarify- the “New Progressive Minyan in the Heights” is not entirely egal. Women will be invited to do Kabbalat Shabbat, Kiddush, and you guessed it ANNOUNCEMENTS
For more info you are welcome to contact migdalOr.Minyan@gmail.com.
Rabbi Schnaidman was contacted by the author/editor of this blog Rebecca Honig Friedman… He confirmed everything that Sharon Weiss said. He knew in advance about the article and obviously did not have an interest in preventing it from being published. Rebecca and Sharon- did he ask you not to publicize his thoughts on this subject?
why do we need the stupid announcements anyways?
[…] light of the recent goings-on in the predominant modern orthodox synagogue in Washington Heights, this comes as an interesting […]
I have never been to this shul, and am commenting here on a general issue.
Another issue that arises from this whole conversation is the fact that many women have a hard time feeling comfortable in shul. They are behind a barrier and can not participate, and often have a hard time seeing or even hearing what is happening (although this differs from shul to shul).
According to the Ramban, Rashi, Mishna Berura, Rav Soloveitchik, Shaagat Aryeh and many others, women have exactly the same obligation in prayer as do men (see Talmud Bavli Berachot 20b). So when women do not feel comfortable in davening, it is more than just discomfort–it can actually lead them to bitul of a mitzvat asei.
So, I strongly feel that the ideal in prayer is for women to have separate prayer groups. In that setting, women are able to feel comfortable and participate. And, we would not have to worry about impropriety between men and women–meaning no more controversy over women making announcements!
Chakira and Did anybody read the article:
I did speak with Rabbi Schnaidman, who, for the record, seemed to be a very nice man who has been put in a difficult position by all of this and is being forced to think hard about the issue, in a way he hasn’t done before. I personally don’t think he deserves a “full castigation.” Unless you’re going to fully castigate the majority of older, orthodox rabbis for having traditional views on the inherent differences between men and women.
Though he stuck by his decision, he seemed tentative, even asking me for my opinion on it.
And I believe him when he says his main objective is to maintain the level of kedusha in the shul.
He was concerned about the mechitza issue when we talked about it and to quote the article:
And he seemed sincere about that.
But to answer your question, Did Anybody–
No, Schnaidman did not express any concern about his views being published in Jewess. Though I’m not sure if he understood exactly what Jewess is. He didn’t contradict what Sharon said, but he did explain his views more fully. So anyone who didn’t read the whole article, please do read his quotes.
It seemed to me that if enough MEN in the congregation expressed their
desire to have women make announcements, I mean their dissent to excluding women from announcement-making, Schnaidman might change his thinking. You have to convince him that you will not start hooting and hollering, even in your own head, when Sharon or any other women get up there to announce that Kiddush is sponsored in honor of Mr and Dr. Ploni’s newborn baby.Rebecca Honig Friedman -
It is Rabbi Schnaidman not “Schnaidman”, no one will take you seriously if you don’t know how to show respect for a person who is both a scholar and an elder.
Sharon –
If you know of communities that allow woman to make announcements, GO DAVEN TEHRE.
If you do not like our Mechitza, then find a shul with a higher, less transparent Mechitza, and GO DAVEN THERE.
There are many other shuls to daven at. If the HaShkafa of Mt. Sinai in not inline with your own then find a shul that you identify with and GO DAVEN THERE.
Many people (of course not everyone living in WH) moved to WH after University because of the community, because there is a shul like Mt. Sinai, that both allows for a social setting and is still inline with Traditional Modern Orthodoxy. To try and change this haShkafa is not fair to all those who moved to WH because of the current atmosphere.
If you would like to make announcements and feel more included in the community, no one is stopping you from:
1) Finding a community and shul that you feel comfortable in.
2) Creating your own Minyan in Washington Heights, if you believe that it would be in demand.
If as you say is true and there is demand for such change and that the Boca Raton community is the model for the “Center for the Jewish Future”, then Yeshiva University should have no problem with women making the announcements in the Main Beit Midrash on Shobbat, or if that seems like a impossibility, then at any of the numerous other Minyanim that are within the various Yeshiva University campuses. Please let me know if you believe that this is a possibility.
Sharon, I wish you luck on your endeavor, but please think twice before to attempt to make a radical change in the community that a lot of us living in WH are happy with.
Sincerely,
GO DAVEN ELSEWHERE
P.S. Do not comment on the fact that I have not said my real name, not all of us are as brave as Sharon
Actually its kind of backwards in the Schottenstein (aka Shenk, aka “Yeshiva Commmunity Shul”) shul. You see, it is a beautiful old style sanctuary (though modernized a bit like a library style beis medrash with comfy carpet tables and chairs down on the floor) But it has a very high ceiling with a womens section in the balcony. So the problem of course is that the women can look at all the men if they want to at any time. While the men of course, if they wanna look up at their wives (or their friend’s wives) they must look up which is bad for two reasons. Firstly, they get a creek in the neck and second, Everyone will know, both men and women that the guy is staring at the chickies.
This ordinarily wouldnt be such a problem but you see being that I have davened there (with many mt sinai maaloters) on Yom Kippur, I have had a very tough time with this discriminatory anti male setup especially on a day like Yom Kippur. It is a backwards to assume that only the women would be strong enough to handle such a tough nisayon on yom kippur of all days.
To make myself clear, the shul is populated by a majority of singles on Yom Kippur, while the rest of the year they are the tiny minority as the shul currently is mostly married couples under the age of 25.
Such a bad example. A crink in your neck when you wanna check out the chicks. But you get comfortable chairs that lean back even! When you’re sitting on a hard wooden pew for 16 hours you certainly are feeling oppressed. A crink in the neck is far better than a pain in the ass.
I don’t know about women or making anouncements. I just want you all to get along. thats my 2¢. good shabbos!
two things:
- there is no sexual tension in shul as there is not much to look at.
- there will be no real place for women in orthodoxy as long as men hide behind false laws.
Three quick thoughts:
The Kemp Mill Synagogue in Silver Spring, MD. has a mehitzah that runs down the middle of the shul (a set-up that would be VERY easy to implement in Mt. Sinai b/c there already is a large gap in between the two halves of the shul and there are doors on each side). There is a podium in the front of the shul on the women’s side. When women scholars give Divrei Torah in shul, they speak to the congregation from the front of the shul, from within the women’s section. I think it’s only fair that men too should pay attention to divrei Torah etc. being said on the other side of the mehitzah. There was communal opposition in S.S. to women speaking before Mussaf, and so K.M.S. decided that all divrei Torah, by women or by men, (or by the rabbi), will be given after Musaf. -This is offered as another model of how a large Modern Orthodox shul did things.
Rabbi Schneidman’s support of the eruv has almost certainly done more to enable women to involve themselves in tefillah be-tzibbur and communal life than any announcement-maker could ever hope to. He took a lot of flak for that and his Orthodox bona fides were necesary for the eruv project to be succesful. It’s OK for communities and rabbis to have priorities and decide to carefuly spend one’s political capital in the broader community. But, women shouldn’t always be the ones to pay the price!
I personally find it hard to understand why anyone would be bothered by a woman making announcements in shul (a humorous man trying to be entertaining would be just as much an infringement upon the kedushah of the shul as a hypothetical woman trying to be cute). I also find it hard to understand why any woman would choose to fight on this issue. It’s so trivial and there are so many important struggles to improve the situation for Orthodox women.
This is such an interesting discussion. First off, - Sharon - you rock. You feel passionately about an issue and try to do something.
Second, Go Daven Elsewhere, - talk to the Rabbi before you get rid of an active and interested member. Rabbi Schnaidman didn’t seem bent out of shape - why are you? Shuls are made up of different types of people and the majority will win. And if you are noticing a shift in the majority, well - Go Daven Elsewhere!
Third, we agree - it is hypocritical to have women speak at Shalosh Seudos but not give announcements - which is why I don’t think women should do either.
That said, even if a women should feel that it is tzanua to speak to a mixed audience, decorum inside a shul is always different than outside. Women will put those silly doilies on their head to go into shul but won’t cover their hair at shalosh seudos. Women who wear pants wear skirts to shul. There is a level of respect for tradition that comes when entering an Orthodox sanctuary. The shul is all about kedusha - and according to Rashi - kedoshim tihu means prushim min haarayos being separate from sexual immorality. So in shul there is a much more heightened awareness of keeping men and women separate than in any other place in Jewish life. This is a sensitivity which demonstrates our appreciation for the unique status a shul’s sanctuary has as a mikdah meat.
I don’t think Rabbi Schnaidman is being old fashioned. I just think that our generation has a dulled sensitivity to these types of nuances that we have to learn from the previous generation.
We regret to inform you of the passing of David Yamnik - Elchonon Dovid Yifrach Ben Frieda who many in the community were praying for. He was a 24 year old YU Alumnus who fought a hard and short battle with lukeimia and leaves behind a young wife and their infant son.
In his zechut, and the zechut of others, let us worry about what really matters in our lives, as short as they might be.
Why did you delete my news about David Yamnik obm? He and his wife are contemporaries of many people in this community.
” there will be no real place for women in orthodoxy as long as men hide behind false laws.”
Its a wonder then that we have lasted several thousand years.
I think the only answer that will actually placate anyone at this point is to abolish this stupid “contest”. Fine, they won’t allow women to make announcements. But why rub it in our face by still including the contest in the weekly bulletin (calling them “open auditions”) and sending guys up to the pulpit for “try-outs”. If something causes such commotion in shul and you can put out a small part of the fire by shutting this down, why the hell not move in that direction? After all, the Rabbis speech on Shabbos explained how difficult of a decison this was for him, and whether or not I agree with him at this point, he should at least have the Kavod HaBriyot כבוד הברייות to be a leader and tell the shul to stop this stupid game. The same way a woman would distract a man’s kavannah in shul by making announcements, I’ve become enflamed everytime this is mentioned while I sit in the pews. Does my kavannah not matter?
Since when is it the Rabbi’s job to satisfy every single one of the congregants neuroses?
Rabbi Schnaidman is one of the friendliest, nicest shul Rabbis out there. He tries to meet and greet every single new face he sees. An practicing hospital chaplain, Rabbi Schnaidman has more Kavod Habrios in his little toe than any of the people who have helped to drag his name through the mud over nothing.
I have not read any comments before mine.
I will only say that the Gemara in Kedushin CLEARLY says “Hakol B’isha ERVA”
Shame on these wicked people who wish to distort and twist the words of TAANOIM and AMORAIM!!
Um, on that last post…when the Gemara talks about Am Haarez, I never really had a good sense of the definition. Until I read your post. First of all, the more important Gemara is in berakhot. I don’t want to rehash the entire sugya (as well as the historical background to the sugya), but it would probably benefit you if I did, because you clearly aren’t aware of even the most basic issues surrounding the Talmud’s law of kol isha. Second of all, I’m really hoping your post is a joke, or else I may have to convert to Islam, out of need for a more peaceful and tolerant option. I made the point to President Joel recently that even though many people emerge from YU looking normal, they’ve been injected with religious poisont that transcends garb and kippah type. Thanks for proving my point.
HOORAY FOR WOMEN!
http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=11330
goo goo ga ga,
While it is quite obvious that virtually no one in the mt sinai community interprets kol isha to mean non musical speech and is therefore not relevant here, I find it interesting that people are so neurotic about kol isha when Rav Yitzchak Hutner and Rav Yosef Dov Solevetchick went to the opera. Rav Hutner was a regular. See this shiur (the relevant part is 1 hour 12 min of the way through)
http://www.yutorah.org/showShiur.cfm?shiurID=709758
Zach, why do you assume that the guy from the Yeshiva World site actually went to YU?
How are the YU boys any less religiously poisoned than those who seek to poison religion?
If one were to survey your students would you emerge the perfect educator?
Bravo again to Rabbi Schnaidman for sticking to principles. These chicks could stand to learn a little humble modesty. Tzniut is not only for collar buttons and ankle socks. Its about not flaunting oneself in front of people, men and women and god, especially in a place of holiness during holy activities.
It’s really difficult listening to the opposition in this case.
Because the Rabbi felt uncomfortable with a woman standing in front of the Mt Sinai shul on Friday night, the response should be a minyan where women lead Kabalas Shabbos??
I understand the sensitivities involved, and the desire to be involved, but I have a hard time listening to the argument that breaking away from the shul to daven in someone’s apt is really l’shem shamayim.
I don’t doubt your honesty when you say that you really want to say the announcements in front of everyone, or that you would really get a spiritual high by leading the congregation in their tefilot.
Also, the constant denigration of Rabbi Schnaidman is disheartening and embarrassing.
To degrade the man and not call him by his title is a shame and really weakens your position as being one in the pursuit of G-dliness.
Good luck in your spiritual endeavors, and I hope G-d shines favorably on your efforts.
?-
I’m not sure who you are addressing.
To clarify, Sharon Weiss is the one who wanted to make announcements.
Karen Shulman is the one organizing the Migdal Or minyan, which as far as I know is not a direct response to the announcements issue but more a general response to being frustrated with the Orthodox minyanim in Washington Heights (Karen can correct me or add her two cents here, I do not claim to speak for her).
As to denigrating Rabbi Schnaidman, I have no intention of doing so. If you are referring to my leaving off the title of rabbi in reference to Rabbi Schnaidman, it was done without any intent of malice. I was just falling into a journalistic norm of referring to people by their last names. I certainly did not mean to offend anyone, least of all Rabbi Schnaidman, who as I said in my earlier comment, I found to be a very nice man in my one phone conversation with him, which is the only interaction I have ever had with him.
Lastly, if it was me you were referring to, I do not claim to be “in the pursuit of G-dliness” (or to not be).
I can confirm that this new minyan is completely unrelated to the announcement contest… they’ve been planning it for months… the timing is coincidence.
Thank you Rebecca and Sharon for clarifying.
This minyan has been in the process of forming for months. I cannot stress enough that we do not want to be a “break away minyan”, we just want to provide an alternative for those who want one.
David said: “I also find it hard to understand why any woman would choose to fight on this issue.”
Maybe you should talk to them. I agree that it sounds trivial and all that (and you know how much of a pragmatist I am), but so are many straws that broke many camel’s backs in history. (I have my suspicions in this case — to borrow an analogy from elsewhere on this thread, why make such a fuss over such a little thing as being asked to sit in the back of bus?) A little more relationship-building and a little less bewilderment might make for a stronger, healthier community.
[…] problems with women performing circumcisions, or anyone else for that matter. (Thanks to commenter Discriminated Against Male Jew for this one.) Encyclopedia Judaica’s new egalitarianism. The Encyclopaedia Judaica has […]
Apologies for confusing the two
I hope she is successful. The Rabbi is wrong. If that is all it takes what is the point of the ban? I am quite frankly ashamed to be amongst the orthodox shule goers, when I see things like this.
How is the Rabbi WRONG?
What BAN are you talking about?
Ms. Friedman,
Complaints about gender unequal treatment ring a little bit hollow under a masthead that asserts female superiority.
I’m sure you will say that it’s a joke.
Unfortunately my sense of humor has been impaired by grim feminists saying “that’s NOT funny”.
How about a joke about beating one’s wife…. in bowling.
I wasn’t allowed to see any of my daughter’s performances in high school. Men are simply prohibited from attendance. I also had to fight for them to send me a copy of her report cards after her mother and I divorced. Then I had to fight to get progress reports because I “only” asked for report cards. Men were discouraged from attending parent teacher conferences. As another writer has pointed out, there are countless women’s shiurim and lectures that do not allow men.
Does Ms. Weiss and Ms. Friedman see any injustice there?
Bozoer Rebbe -
Without knowing all the details of your family life and divorce I can’t comment on the specific injustices of your case, but I do know that mothers are usually favored when it comes to children and divorce and that can be a tremendous injustice to fathers.
No one’s claiming that men are somehow invincible when it comes to being wronged. Or that women are immune from being wrong.
The “better half” motto is meant to be ironic, as you suspected I would say. I hope we are at the point where even feminists can take and make a joke. Obviously there are plenty of wonderful men out there and plenty of horrible women. And vice versa.
Gender does not determine menschlichkeit.
As to women’s only shiurim, they exist because historically most shiurim have been men’s only. And also because some think there is a value to single sex education, especially for women.
If any men have tried to participate in a women’s only shiur, I would love to hear about it and what the response from women was like. My hunch is they haven’t because they don’t actually want to participate and they don’t actually feel threatened by the existence of women’s only classes or events. My sense, as has been the case in this comment thread, is that men only use that particular claim of injustice as a pretense with which to challenge women’s attempts to “crash” the men’s only universe.
Are you threatened by men’s shiurim?
How does it work?
Abbey Dooby -
Don’t follow your question. How does what work?
what’s the threat?
I didn’t say that women ARE threatened by men’s shiurim (just that I doubt the sincerity of most men who claim to be threatened by women’s-only shiurim).
But you bring up an interesting question. Why do women mind when they are barred from men’s only activities?
I’ll offer two answers:
1. In order to have access to the activity itself.
Women’s only shiurim came about to provide learning opportunities for women, who had been barred from men’s shiurim. Or to use high school sports as an example, girls have fought to join boys’ teams when no girls’ team existed for whatever sport they wanted to play.
2. The civil rights movement is this country has cast significant doubt on the validity of “separate but equal.” Especially when it comes to intellectual activities, in which there should be no doubt that women are as capable as men. Right or not, men’s only classes at shuls or Jewish community centers are usually viewed as being at a higher level than women’s only classes, so women might feel deprived of access to that higher level of learning.
But I’m not really sure how we got onto this topic, since this whole thing started with a woman wanting to make announcements, which has nothing to do with men’s only shiurim.
I didn’t understand the notion that men would be threatened by women’s shiur, so I thought maybe you were saying that’s how women feel about men-only shiurs.
My experiences talking with women is that, in general, they are much more interested in different aspects of learning.
So it makes sense that different shiurim would address different interests.
I understand that it would be bad if women wanted to learn Torah and were told not to.
But is it bad when women are attracted to certain styles that men are not, and vice versa?
I haven’t found it to be due to lack of experience in those areas (such as gemara), I have found that “naturally” guys and girls react and appreciate different areas of Torah.
Do I sound too old-fashioned? Because it’s really not my intention.
Is there a better place to continue this discussion?
Gary Rosenblatt touched on this issue in The Jewish Week a while back, discussing Emily Katz Shapiro’s talk at the JOFA conference, in which she argued that while many young men go to Israel wanting to improve their Talmud learning, many young women go to Israel wanting to get more religious, and that that gender difference is a problem: http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=13679
I mentioned the article in that week’s J Papers Roundup, and Cross-Currents posted a reaction to that article, which I mentioned in this blog roundup, so if you want you can move the discussion to any of those posts, or this comment thread is as good as any. So many options.
You do sound old-fashioned but that doesn’t mean there isn’t some truth to what you’re saying. It goes back to the never-ending debate about whether men and women are just hard-wired differently or whether they are simply raised differently, encouraged to excel in different ways and take interest in different subjects.
I would also add that I’m not agreeing with your generalizations. Obviously every individual is different, but also most men are encouraged to study Talmud and women are usually not, which might account for the “natural” differences in their appreciation for different areas of Jewish learning.
[…] battle over women making announcements in shul makes it to a bangitout.com Top Ten list. What a proud day this must be for Sharon Weiss […]
my 2 shekalim, if you will:
1) ve’ahavta le’reacha ka’mocha should not be taken lightly. I feel that it has been breached several times over here. no more said.
2) mens nature - it is very possible that women giving announcements can turn men on. human nature is like that. maybe women shouldnt be giving dvar torahs to men either. im not saying either way, just food for thought.
3) tzniut - does apply to men as well, poeple should not be running towards being the center of attention, i.e. trying to daven alot, get aliyas or make announcements (halacha by davening says your supposed to refuse to daven twice before accepting, for this reason). regardless of what halacha does or does not say (some poeple should maybe realize that they are not gedolim, do not know kol hatorah kula, or even alot of it, and should not be issueing psakim to the public), its sad that such a large fuss has been made about women trying to join in on the attention seeking rat-race.
4) agudot - the more and more we push for things like this, the more uncomfortable more-right-wing-inclined-people would feel. this is only something that will further split Am yisrael, and lord knows we are split enough as it is.
5) feminism - and in the same vane, jewish feminism is doomed to failure. lets say that Rav Schneidman does allow women to make announcements in his shul. lets even say that women take over the entire jewish world as shul announcment makers, and even baali teffila, or baali keriya, the point is it could never be enough. even if there is some room for halachik play in some of these matters, such as davening, the next step can never be taken. halacha does differentiate between men and women. as much as she may wish, a woman cannot halachikly be counted towards a minyan. Modern orthodoxy is a nice idea, trying to unite the best of the western world with the best of the jewish world, unfortunately in reality it has many problems to it, such as poeple absorbing some of the not best parts of western society, such as tv and ugalitarianism , and the not best parts of the jewish world, such as a willingness to try to flirt around halacha. maybe if even only poeple here started trying to bring about mashiach instead of fighting for the rights to make announcements in shul this world would be a better place.
chag sameach.
I don’t care to comment on my personal opinion regarding whether the shul’s announcer may be a woman (other than to applaud Sharon for stirring things up), but I would like to comment on Rabbi Schnaidman.
I’ve known him for four years. Not a lot, but significantly longer than many of the current mitpallelim/ot at our shul (I’m one of the geezers of the younger cohort). I’ve had many personal and private discussions with him over this time regarding life in general as well as nuanced halakhic issues pertaining both to bein adam l’chavero and laMakom (sometimes both at once). These were usually not black or white, yes/no, muttar/assur issues.
Sadly, many figures of religious authority I’ve encountered in the past have withdrawn from taking an unequivocal stance and accepting responsibility for their answers, or they have so diluted the matter with superficial hashkafic platitudes.
Rabbi Schnaidman never backed down from tough issues and sought, with great sensitivity and gravity, to find appropriate solutions that would maintain people’s dignity and rights, and especially his commitment to halakha. I have been repeated impressed by the creativity he draws upon to reach such solutions.
That many of you were not satisfied with his logic does not mean he is old-fashioned, inconsiderate, or obdurate. He recognizes the inherent challenges in leading a shul comprised of very different populations and has taken great pains to foster the spiritual & personal devlopment, comfort, and acceptance of each, though such effort has often been fraught with conflict.
He is not perfect, but he is sincere and sensitive to the individuals that comprise the kehillah. I know first-hand the angst he experiences when he feels that someone may have been slighted or excluded within the context of his shul (and the hospital to which he devotes so much of his energy).
My only disappointment with the recent influx of new members of this community (of which I am part) is that so many see him only as “the old guy who gives really long drashot and seems kinda out of touch with us” and don’t appreciate the opportunity they have to be part of his flock.
[…] Mount Sinai Jewish Center announcements clamor had a chance to play out formally at a “town hall” meeting on Sunday, April 22nd. […]
I’d like to offer my own Talmudic-style opinion here by saying I think both sides are right: I wouldn’t personally object to a woman making announcements (in fact I think it’s a bit silly to care too much either way) but at the same time I think we have to respect a marah d’asrah enough to abide by his decision if he thinks it’s innapropriate for his community, and to acknowledge that maybe he has a legitimate opinion too. In other words, true pluralism means tolerating all sorts of divergent views, even those from the right. What we may think is irellevant becuse in the end the rabbi is the authority. If you don’t like it, either fire him or seek another shul/community.
The worst kind of argument is to try to portray someone you disagree with as having “holes in logic” or faulty logic etc, as Ms. Weiss has done. What you really mean when you say this is that you strongly disagree, but remember that “logic” is a mathematical word and this is essentially a spiritual/religious/emotional issue which is not about simple mathematical logic. Torah has an internal logic of its own. If you really mean the person’s INTERNAL logic is inconsistent then prove that somehow, don’t just say their argument is stupid. Those of you who strongly support women making announcements, try to see the other side of the argument, and allow me to play devil’s advocate for that side: women do not lead any part of the service and are seperated by a mechitza. Can’t you see how it can be a distracting break in protocol to have a woman suddenly appear on the bima, where she is not accustomed to appear at ANY other time in the service? I would say the announcements are at the end of davening and so it is not in fact so distracting but the significant opposition of so many men on this blog alone shows that many men ARE in fact uncomfortable, which proves the rabbi’s point. Remember, he didn’t say the men SHOULD be uncomfortable, only that le’maaseh they are. There are many halakhot precluding women taking public roles because of k’vod hatzibur. One cannot deny that this is a stream of jewish thought. It need not be “halakha” per se, rememeber rabbis are also the spiritual and hashkafic leaders of the community as well. Also, women are not halakhicly required to be in synagogue at all but men are. We can’t deny that sometimes jewish values conflict with our modern western assumptions. Overall, I think the whole contoversy is a bit silly and overblown and I suspect some of the slighted women have deeper agendas and grievances and are using this to vent a general displeasure with the status of women in orthodoxy. If that’s indeed the case, that is a very legitimate complaint and deserves a discussion of its own, but they should admit that that’s the real underlying issue.
Case in point RE my last comment that Weiss has a further agenda: “I can confirm that this new minyan is completely unrelated to the announcement contest… they’ve been planning it for months… the timing is coincidence.” she says about the new egaliterian “minyan”. Yeh right. I concede they weren’t planned together at the same time, but hashkafically they certainly are related. Does this leave anyone in doubt that Weiss is interested in pushing expanded roles for women in the synagoge in GENERAL and that announcements are simply a part of a greater issue? If thats true why not just admit it?
sorry I put the word “minyan” in quotes there, I meant to put the word “egaliterian” in quotes (Cuz I’m not sure what that means in this context) question-what parts of the service can women lead at this minyan?
Moshe G:
“I suspect some of the slighted women have deeper agendas and grievances and are using this to vent a general displeasure with the status of women in orthodoxy. If that’s indeed the case, that is a very legitimate complaint and deserves a discussion of its own, but they should admit that that’s the real underlying issue.”
I don’t think anyone’s denying that’s the underlying issue. Making announcements is a non-religious ritual, so one that there should not be any halachic issue with a woman performing. Which even Rabi Schnaidman says there isn’t - the issue is one of hashkafa rather than halacha. So for a woman to be told she cannot perform even this role, it is a slight.
RE:the egalitarianism of the minyan, women lead kabbalat shabbat at the MigdalOr meetings. I cannot speak to the halachic underpinnings of that decision, but there are halachic authorities that allow it.
Rebecca- I agree it’s an unnecessary slight to these women to deny them making announcements and it’s just a hashkafic issue- I’m just saying once it’s a hashkafic issue, try seeing where his hashkafa is coming from and acknowledge he has a good hashkafic case to make even if you disagree. As for migdal or, I know it’s not the topic here but you wrote “there are halachik authorities who allow it” (women doing kabalat shabat)..I actually don’t know of any authorities who explicitly allow this. (If you do, please tell me, since it sounds like an interesting idea but I’d be uncomfortable attending without the support of recognized poskim).
Moshe G:
I need to look into this further. As far as “recognized poskim” go, it would depend on whose recognition you recognize.
Shira Hadash’s website has links to some articles discussing the halachic issues involved: http://www.geocities.com/shira_hadasha/
But for quick take, here’s some info about the reasoning behind partnership minyanim, courtesy of Wikipedia:
Rebecca- thanx for the links. hope everyone had a meaningful shavuot. people- try to keep the convo respectable, there are some low blows being posted here
Moshe G:
I think the convo is pretty much over except for us. To follow up on your earlier question, Karen Shulman, one of MigdalOr’s co-founders says they hold by Rabbi Saul Berman’s opinions on minyan matters.
June 12,2007
Mazel tov to your new minyan in washington Heights..
All those who started such a wonderful minyan deserves a special Yeyasher Koach from all of us..After all,One does not need a special brain to form a minyan and if does ,it shows that those who join are able to get along with one and the other and to make other comfortable when the daven to the almighty..Yes that deserves a special Yeyasher Koach..Just to make other feel comfortable…Hatzlacha Rabbah..Keep up your good work
[…] the Heights did it again. Washington Heights, that is. This time it’s the Shenk […]
Could you please provide me with the references in Talmud that specifically prohibits a woman from speaking before the congregation? Thank you.
B. -
I’m pretty sure there aren’t any.
Hi Rebecca
I just read your blog on making announcements in Shul. I think part of the confusion comes from double standards. If women are not allowed to make announcements, then they shouldnt be allowed to give Divrei Torah at seudah 3 either. Halcha is not wishy washy, What ever is decided should be adhered to across the board. You need to find a shul that doesnt sit on the fence.
However, as very busy and fulfilled career mom, I give you a bracha that you should have such a full and busy life, these things become non isues as you make a name yourself with real issues of the day. (terrorist victims, poverty in Israel etc)
Chana Meira,
Thanks for reading. Mt. Sinai isn’t actually the shul I attend, mine is much more on what I consider the correct side of the fence, but I appreciate the bracha. Thanks.
Doesn’t matter one way or the other. No one is right. No one is wrong.
If you want to see disparagement of a gender look to your own masthead: “The Tribe’s Better Half”.
I’m so pleased people are still reading these old posts!
As for the tag line, it’s meant to be tongue-in-cheek.
What is bumburbia?
Magnificent collection of prayers - and I haven\’t begun to explore the rest of the website!
Ochen’ nuzhen buhgalter, hochu sprosit’ soveta
Greetings,
What are the cheapest web hosting company?
I’m want to build a web site for my new business.
Thank you,
-Francis